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 Post subject: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:21 am 
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Looking for some feedback... This has been done and there is probably a thread out there, but I'm looking for some feedback.

I have a 73 b20F that needs to be bored .020 at least and a b18d (I could put the b20F head on it since I did all the headwork already)

I want to boost it. Looking for 10psi or so..

Options:

Garrett GT2871 Ball bearing turbo custom header or remote mount (I don't know if the exhaust pulse ok with turbos or if that is why they need to be rebuilt all the time)

Vortech V1 S-Trim... ford mustang supercharger

Either way I will be running an air-liquid intercooler using it like an A/C evaporator (this system should run intake temps at about 70 degrees on a 100 degree day)


Let me know what you guys think


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:51 pm 
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I have done a lot of thinking about this asked a lot of questions over the last couple of years...

This is not gospel truth, but what I have come up with is this: superchargers take too much energy from the crank of an already small engine (it got nothing like the rotating mass of a V8!) to be efficient enough for the trouble. You could certainly make it work, but the power gains over cost don't really play out well unless you have many many $1K's to invest.

A turbo is far more efficient for the displacement, and much cheaper—but even with an intercooler, the issue is the iron head. Unlike aluminum, steel develops hot spots under boost, making it nearly impossible to control pre-ignition, even at low boost levels. A way around this would be to eternally run E85, which is available in limited quantities in the Metro area. I have heard (though never tried) that E85 makes it possible to run a lot of boost through iron heads with minimal issues.

If anyone else has thoughts here, I am interested too!

Keep us updated!

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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:50 am 
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crashbox wrote:
I have done a lot of thinking about this asked a lot of questions over the last couple of years...

This is not gospel truth, but what I have come up with is this: superchargers take too much energy from the crank of an already small engine (it got nothing like the rotating mass of a V8!) to be efficient enough for the trouble. You could certainly make it work, but the power gains over cost don't really play out well unless you have many many $1K's to invest.

A turbo is far more efficient for the displacement, and much cheaper—but even with an intercooler, the issue is the iron head. Unlike aluminum, steel develops hot spots under boost, making it nearly impossible to control pre-ignition, even at low boost levels. A way around this would be to eternally run E85, which is available in limited quantities in the Metro area. I have heard (though never tried) that E85 makes it possible to run a lot of boost through iron heads with minimal issues.

If anyone else has thoughts here, I am interested too!

Keep us updated!



The hot spots that you refer to would be a big problem, but don't you think that running intake temps at nearly 40 degrees below ambient temp would resolve those issues??? I'm most definitely not able to run E85.. no stations within 90 miles that carry it... I can however run 108 octane leaded race fuel. this would suck if its going to be a daily driver...


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Also... I plan on running an electric water pump conversion to lessen the drag on accessory drive system.

Really looking for reliable boost and something that's semi-uncommon.


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:00 am 
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The project is moving forward....

I think I'm gonna stroke it a bit (92mm crank from RSI)
using H-beam rods (RSI)
and some pistons from RSI again (those guys have some good stuff!)

I should get about 2.1/2.2 Liters...

That should spool a T28 turbo pretty quick, right?


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:56 pm 
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Glad to hear you're moving forward!

I am VERY interested in the outcome, as it may change my current plans of building a N/A motor for my 142.

I am still a little unclear on how you plan to use the A/C unit to cool the intake charge, but it sounds like a cool idea. I assume you are going to run fuel injection. What setup are you considering?

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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:02 am 
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Quote:
I am still a little unclear on how you plan to use the A/C unit to cool the intake charge, but it sounds like a cool idea. I assume you are going to run fuel injection. What setup are you considering?


Well its kinda weird but very simple...

You get your hands on an air-liquid intercooler
http://www.amazon.com/Water-Air-Interco ... B003NCLL0U

have an ac shop whip up some lines and use the intercooler as a refrigerator to cool the intake charge as it comes into the intake...

As for the fuel/ignition... Megasquirt 3 or Microsquirt... probably microsquirt just because it's small enough to mount anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Wow, that looks very unique and cool! My only hesitation would be having to run an A/C pump. Still, sounds like you could boost the crap out of it, so I'm sure it'd more than make up for the drag of the pump...

What injectors/intake setup are you going to run? ITB's, D-Jet, Saab?

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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:03 pm 
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If it's a water/air, just use AN lines and pick up an electric water pump. No need for an AC shop and high pressure lines.

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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:12 am 
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volvogeek wrote:
If it's a water/air, just use AN lines and pick up an electric water pump. No need for an AC shop and high pressure lines.


A buddy owns an AC shop and he just did something like this on a thunderchicken supercoupe and saw intake temps drop from 115F to 65F on a 100F day at normal operating temp... They actually used the AC refrigerant system to supercool the intercooler, like hitting a front mount air-air with N02 to quickly freeze it and cool the intake charge...


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:45 am 
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looking to use the k-jet head I have and adapt the injector holders to fit some 75#/hr injectors... I'll cut the original TB off the k-jet manifold and go inside and clean up the castings a bit and weld on a plate to adapt a new TB... I think a 75-80mm tb.


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:41 am 
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Crazy. Besides the modified intake and head, I presume you are completely dropping all the rest of the K-Jet CIS system (fuel dist., lines, pump, etc.), and piecing together a completely custom electronic setup?

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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:03 pm 
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crashbox wrote:
Crazy. Besides the modified intake and head, I presume you are completely dropping all the rest of the K-Jet CIS system (fuel dist., lines, pump, etc.), and piecing together a completely custom electronic setup?


Already been dumped... it all came out of a 242dl... I got scammed on the net trying to sell it about a year ago... Scammers got my first mortgage payment and about 4500.00 in total, then the car wouldn't run, electrical problems, cis problems, engine internal problems that I didn't know about at the time... So I sold it to a wrecking yard after I pulled the motor and trans... I should have got a bunch of other goodies but no time...

So here I am...

73 6 bolt b20 block, m40 (no OD) trans with the short throw shifter, trans cross member..

The short shifter is going on my m41 but the rest will be up for grabs.


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Does anyone have any experience using a T28 turbo on a B21? Just needing some real world experience with a similar displacement motor and that turbo...


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:45 pm 
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Trying to find someone to make or adapt a header is hard when your in the middle of nowhere...

So, I'm going to remote mount my turbo.... lots of plumbing :(

Unless... someone can stand having a turbo between their feet when they ride in my wagon. hmmm.......

Does anyone have any suggestions on placement of a t28 turbo in a 122 Wagon?


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:07 pm 
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Remote-mount turbo sounds like crazy lag issues to me... though I don't have any real experience to confirm this.

Why not have RSI build you a turbo header since they are already supplying other parts? Just measure and give them conservative estimates of your clearance needs.

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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:22 pm 
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crashbox wrote:
Remote-mount turbo sounds like crazy lag issues to me... though I don't have any real experience to confirm this.

Why not have RSI build you a turbo header since they are already supplying other parts? Just measure and give them conservative estimates of your clearance needs.


Well.... as much as I'd love to have a nice turbo mani made up it's a bit outta my budget I think. I didn't think to ask RSI how much they'd charge though.... I'll give them a shout though. Thanks!

As far a lag issues... STS (squires turbo systems) claims that with the right turbine AR there isn't an issue with lag. Just to test it out a buddy and I are going to fab up a td04 turbo on his 12a rotory RX7 this weekend or next just to verify.


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:42 pm 
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sorry I kinda left somethings out of the last post...

My buddy Jered has a 12a rotory RX7 running mega squirt and at the moment he's got a GT35 turbo running about 16-17psi... he's been known to run it up to about 10,000rpms but hits full boost at 6,000rpms or so.

So we are going to see if a TD04 turbo mounted at the rear will even hit its wastgate level of 8 psi... I was thinking about trying it with 2" piping on the cold side to see if this would reduce the "lag" issues... We did some calculating (my math may be a little off) but with the volume of his current 3" tubing and huge front mount intercooler, we would be seeing just a touch more by running 2" the length of the car and utilizing his old small intercooler (top mount off of a suby WRX)

I'll let you know how it turns out.


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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:14 am 
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A TDO4(H/HL/12/13/14/15/16/18/19?) is much smaller than a GT35.

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 Post subject: Re: BOOSTED... Turbo or Supercharger, that it the question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:27 pm 
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KLR142 wrote:
A TDO4(H/HL/12/13/14/15/16/18/19?) is much smaller than a GT35.


Definitely... Jered used to run a TD04 15G and has all the recorded pressures and MS tunes and such for that turbo in a typical front mount setup. He recently did a huge upgrade to the GT35 and doesn't want to cut up his new manifold so we're going to revert his ms tunes back to what he had with the TD04 and try the turbo in the rear to see if there is anything to learn... Since it's a 1.2l engine that has an almost unlimited boost threshold we figure it will give us at the very least something to laugh about. When he had it all running the TD04 it was pretty quick on spool up but after it would hit about 8psi it would somewhat stall out then slowly pick up again. This was with an internal wastegate and cheapo boost controller. So I guess it should have about the same lag but this is the reason for testing.

If it's not too laggy Im gonna try it on the amazon, if it is really laggy, well then I may just have to put it in the fender or something... or poke it through the hood... or just build a NA monster b20...

I'll post the news when we try it


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